The Numinous Podcast

TNP77 Digging Deep with Forensic Archeologist Juliana Kabal Xok

When was the last time you spoke with a Mayanist? When did you last have a conversation where someone dropped the term "terra nullius"? Let's talk about the Mayan calendar glyphs and the New Agers – what's up with all that? Juliana does forensic science for Operation ID, a project that excavates bodies of migrants who've died in the desert trying to cross the Mexico-US border and help identify them so their families can know what happened to their loved ones. I found this topic extremely difficult to hear so, trigger warning...This is mature content: rape, murder, genocide. We're talking about a harrowing humanitarian crisis. This is an interesting conversation about colonialism in academia, cultural appropriation in personal spiritual practices, the trauma of the Inquisition carried by white people (especially women), along with some super interesting stories about entheogenic spiritual experiences. An excellent essay – truly a seminal piece of work – that Juliana led me to is called Decolonization Is Not A Metaphor by Eve Tuck and K.Wayne Yang. It should be required reading for settlers trying to understand what decolonization really means.

TNP76: L’Erin Alta on Lineage + Legacy

It makes sense that a very unique and special person would have a very unique and special upbringing. Today's guest, L'Erin Alta, is a soul guide, shadow diver, and spiritual teacher, and she gives a great interview because she's willing to go there right off the top. It was inspiring for me to hear about the special village that raised her and also find connections between our histories – I also come from a small family and know nothing about my paternal ancestry. I also have had to reclaim lineage and walk the spiritual path in a very self-directed and intuitively guided way – a way that at times has been cocky and arrogant. In other words, a way that has been humbling. One of the teachers L'Erin mentions in this interview is the recently deceased, Sonbonfu Somé. Sign up for L'Erin's newsletter to learn more about workshops, retreats and one-on-one intensives at her website: sisterfire.com Follow her on Facebook for insightful and provocative posts about the important things in life.

TNP75 Jennifer Jacquet Asks Is Shame Necessary

I have been thinking about shame for a couple of years now. Mostly, I have socially unacceptable thoughts about it. But since reading Jennifer Jacquet's book, Is Shame Necessary? New Uses For An Old Tool, I have been both relieved and emboldened. So I'm releasing my shame around championing shame. I'm thrilled to welcome Jennifer to the show to expand on her ideas around effective uses of shame when dealing with large-scale cooperation dilemmas like climate change, over-fishing, and racism. In this episode, Jennifer mentions high profile examples like Justine Sacco whose life was ruined by a single tweet, and Walter Palmer, the dentist who shot Cecil the Lion. She also makes a distinction between shaming corporations versus individuals. As such, it is a form of punishment that scales well. If you would like to see the tour de force example of the public shaming of the Dow Chemical Company by The Yes Men, here is the video. The response is detailed in this video. Here's the manel-shaming featuring David Hasselhoff, plus the article that did the math on statistical proof of sexism with regard to the issue. In the Rubenation segment, Ruben mentioned our friend, J.B.MacKinnon and his excellent book, The Once And Future World. If you love the planet, you should read it. This interview goes well with episode TNP67: Confronting Whiteness with Rachael Rice and Marybeth Bonfiglio. Check out more of Jennifer's work at jenniferjacquet.com

TNP74 Sacred Beekeeping with Nikiah Seeds

Bees! Some of my favourite beings! I'm so excited to give sacred beekeeping some airtime on the podcast today. My guest is Nikiah Seeds – another of my favourite beings! – who is a priestess, shamanic practitioner, and ceremonialist. As a teacher at the College of the Melissae - Centre for Sacred Beekeeping, Nikiah has a tremendous amount of technical and spiritual knowledge about bees. In this episode, Nikiah recommends we check out the book, The Honey Trail: In Pursuit of Liquid Gold and Vanishing Bees, to learn more about sustainable beekeeping. I would also like to recommend you check out Nikiah's book, Moon Mysteries, co-created with Nao Sims and Eyan Myers, if you're interested in learning more about connecting lunar rhythms with your menstrual cycle. I really enjoyed that book. Nikiah also leads drum-making workshops. I've personally experienced it and can attest to the specialness and wealth of spiritual teachings that Nikiah so generously provides. Gather a group of women together and bring her to your town if you can. *** Footnotes: To learn more about Boudicca, start here. Learn more about the excavation of the bee priestess on Crete here.  

TNP73 Charlene Spretnak on Reclaiming PrePatriarchal Goddesses

I'm absolutely thrilled to have Charlene Spretnak on the show today. Charlene is a prolific author in the fields of feminist women's spirituality, environmentalism, and the interrelatedness of social change movements. A summary of each of her books can be found here. The book initially that inspired her to write research into the lost goddess myths of pre-patriarchal Greece is called The First Sex by Elizabeth Gould Davis. The philosopher Charlene mentioned is Luce Irigaray. Charlene has provided me with so much material to research and study. If you'd like to hear the speech I gave inspired by her book, Lost Goddesses of Early Greece, check out TNP64.

TNP72 Alexis P. Morgan on Witchcraft Magic Liberation

I'm so excited about this show! Alexis P. Morgan is an artist, activist, pan Germanic heathen, and sorceress. In this episode we talk about cultural appropriation in spiritual practice, Alexis gives us a year's worth of witchcraft study references, and we learn what the heck a pan Germanic heathen is. Here are the resources Alexis recommends: If You Want to Be A Witch Sarah Ann Lawless Mastering Witchcraft Evolutionary Witchcraft Jailbreaking the Goddess The Chaos Protocols Starships Jason Miller Brianna Saucy Josephine McCarthy You can purchase candles, temporary tattoos and t-shirts from the Church of St Felicia through the online store.

TNP71 Kelly Diels on the Female Lifestyle Empowerment Brand

Let’s talk about the connection between “conscious marketing” and Pick Up Artist culture, shall we? You may be surprised to discover that there’s actually quite a clear and direct connection. If you’re an entrepreneur in the personal development or spiritual space, this episode is for you. If you’ve ever been had by a Pick Up Artist (PUA), a narcissist, or experienced buyer’s remorse after a major purchase that involved a charismatic salesperson or coach, this episode is for you. Kelly Diels is a writer and feminist marketing consultant who has articulated a severely problematic phenomenon she’s named the Female Lifestyle Empowerment Brand, (FLEB), the effects of which can be seen all around us. FLEB is basically this: a marketing approach leading with beauty, wealth and privilege, constructed as empowerment. In other words, empowerment – which is supposed to be a collective experience of liberation – is presented as an individual experience of wealth and privilege. In business, spirituality, politics, parenting, and beyond, the FLEB effect is pervasive and harmful. But we can stop supporting it and stop perpetuating it if we know what to look for. This episode is meant to educate and inoculate. Read Kelly’s essays on the FLEB and sign up for her newsletter for weekly evolution. If you’re seeking to transform the way you do business, consider joining Kelly’s Facebook group, How To Sell To Women Without Selling Them Out. The book Kelly mentions – a big favourite on the podcast – is Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

TNP70 Sewit Thomas Jones on Lanaguage and Belonging

Today on the podcast I’m speaking with Sewit who goes by the English name, Thomas Jones. Sewit is a scholar of linguistics and I had the opportunity to learn alongside him at a language revitalization workshop called Where Are Your Keys. As I mentioned in the previous episode, WAYK is a comprehensive method for revitalizing endangered languages and skills. It uses games, tricks and sign language to essentially “hack” second language learning. It was develop by an American fellow named Evan Gardner as a response to the imminent crisis of language loss that so many indigenous communities across North America are facing as elders and conversant speakers die and forget and culture slips away. In this episode, Sewit introduces me to the concept of "the borrowed child" as a form of intergenerational connection, a concept I personally find fascinating coming from more of a "latch key kid" kind of upbringing. He also tells a beautiful origin story from the Snuneymuxw people and shares his thoughts on communal living. Sewit also mentions two other language learning resources you might want to check out if you're interested: Chief Atahm Total Physical Response (TPR) There is a real urgency to language revitalization because the fluent speakers are dying. Sewit is one of only a small number of latent speakers Snuneymuxw. In the past four years, of the ten fluent speakers he could go to for teaching, six have died. Sewit does voiceover work and you can hear him speaking hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓ in the show, Warrior Games. Other resources mentioned in this episode: First Peoples' Language Map of B.C. American Indian Language Development Institute Endangered Language Fund

TNP69- Tiffany Jospeh on Language Land and Everything Important

In this moving and memorable episode, I'm talking with Tiffany Joseph about indigenous language revitalization, sense of place, and navigating settler-indigenous relations with an aim towards Reconciliation. Tiffany is a language scholar and also an astrologer, multi-media artist and blogger. Full disclosure: I cried fragile white lady tears through pretty much the whole thing. I can't quite describe how acutely I felt Tiffany's words, how true they felt in my body, how deeply they pierced through my insides. Give yourself some time to listen carefully to this beautiful offering from Tiffany. You can read the follow up to this interview on Tiffany's blog: https://netsnetseol.wordpress.com Follow her astrology work on Facebook. If you appreciated Tiffany's insights in the episode, you can support her directly through PayPal: PayPal.Me/TiffanyJoseph *** Click here to learn more about Where Are Your Keys? It's not overstatement to say that their method is truly revolutionary and actively helping to save languages from extinction. Check them out, support them and spread the word.

TNP68: Janet Rogers on Art, History and Strong Women

In this free ranging conversation with artist, poet and playwright, Janet Rogers, I have an opportunity to learn about some of the iconic female artists who've inspired some of Janet's work. We also talk about "feminism" as a concept and a word, and "reconciliation" as a concept and a word, and the notion of land-as-body. We get down and dirty about land, reparations, equality and activism. Also notable (for me, anyway), is how my privileged, possessive, white supremacist language which keeps slipping out – I can't seem to stop myself from referring to everything and everyone as "our", as in, the colonial "our". Ugh. Anyway, I do my best. I receive feedback. I apologize. It still pains me to hear it, though. It's what I suppose they call a "teachable moment" and I appreciate Janet for pointing it out and for being patient. Eden Robinson, mentioned by Janet in this interview, is a member of the Haisla and Heiltsuk First Nations and a prolific author. You can follow Janet on Facebook and purchase her books online at Indigo. In this interview, Janet read from her newest work, Totem Poles and Railroads. Yes, I cried.  

TNP66 Aftab Erfan on Safe Spaces

I'm so pleased to welcome to the podcast, Aftab Erfan, Director of Dialogue and Conflict Engagement at the University of British Columbia. Aftab is an experienced facilitator and longtime trainer of the Lewis Method of Deep Democracy. When you watch the video clips at the top of the DeepDemocracy.ca website, you can see me standing behind her business partner and co-facilitator, Sera, who is speaking animatedly. She's "amplifying" Jeremy - one of the tools used in this facilitation method to quickly get to the heart of a matter. My face is cropped, I'm wearing a white blouse, hands in pockets. My posture pretty much says everything about what I think of "hope" in the context of the Is Hope Bullshit? Civic Dialogue they convened. My feelings about hope have evolved a bit since then. It was a life-changing day. Myrna Lewis, (co-developer of the Lewis Method), is just to the left of screen wearing taupe, hand on her necklace. The book Aftab references in this episode is called Conflict Is Not Abuse: Overstating Harm, Community Responsibility, and the Duty of Repair by Sarah Schulman. Sounds like essential reading. Along with Jessie Hemphill (my guest on TNP65), Aftab co-facilitated a Civic Dialogue I convened in my hometown called Yes, I'm Privileged. Now What? I received a lot of feedback from that event, all of it positive. Since then, I've seen it galvanize members of my community around social justice in a way they didn't before. Many have told me it was the experience they needed in order to show up and speak up and put their privilege to work on behalf of marginalized populations. If your organization has the funding and desire to tackle hard topics in order to move forward together, you should definitely reach out to her.

TNP67 Confronting Whiteness with Rachael Rice and Marybeth Bonfiglio

I'm not gonna lie. This one's a doozy. In this episode of the podcast, I am the guest and I say the F word and several other swear words, a lot. The full-length version of this conversation was published in video form as part of Rachael Rice's series, Confronting Whiteness. I met Rachael and Marybeth online and we became familiar with each other's work through Facebook conversations. It was evident to me from the beginning that these are women who know what time it is (#revolutiontime). If you're on Insta, you should definitely follow them. In this conversation, I tell the story of The Racist Dinner Party and I rant about white fragility in Well-intentioned White Women Sisterhood spaces. I make the case for developing a more mature and nuanced relationship with shame and honour, and I implore white women to become more resilient when it comes to racial conversations. Here are the excellent resources cited in this episode: The Roots Of Addiction In Free Market Society Decolonization Is Not A Metaphor The Bluest I Blog by Michelle R Smith Is Shame Necessary?: New Uses For An Old Tool by Jennifer Jacquet  

TNP65: Jessie Hemphill on Walking Between The Worlds

Today I'm talking to my girl, Jessie Hemphill, and we're having a warm and wonderful conversation. It's like we're all sitting down for tea and Jessie's telling us stories about growing up Gwa'sala-'Nakwaxd'axw and Métis in rural coastal Canada while passing for white. We hear a bit about 'Nakwaxd'axw mythology, what her Indigenous name means, how she became a politician, and what it means to do urban planning using culturally-based Indigenous planning processes. Finally, I tell the story of how I became infatuated with met Jessie and she changed the course of my life with some magic words. Then we dish about our unhealthy ways of coping with grief and rage. In the end, it's abundantly clear how much we love each other and this whole show is just a meeting of our mutual appreciation society. You should definitely learn more about Jessie and recommend her company to any community that is looking for a facilitator who can sit in the truth and hold space in the heart of the matter.

TNP64: Learning To See In The Dark

This special episode is a recording of an hour-long keynote address I gave in the fall of 2016. The title of the talk is, "Learning To See In The Dark: Reclaiming Our Power, Transforming Our World". It's a deep dive into the Dark Woman archetype, how she shows up in our lives, why she is so feared and what her purpose is in transforming our lives and our world. For further reading: Charlene Spretnak Jean Shinoda Bolen Demetra George Caroline Casey Carol Leonard & Elizabeth Davis Peggy Reeves Sanday Marije Gimbutas

TNP63: Healing The Abandonment Wound {Special Mini-Series Part 3 of 3}

In this final episode, I talk more about the spiritual void underpinning the abandonment wound. I also provide a framework and suggested exercises that clinical hypnotherapists and other healing practitioners might use to support clients in their journey from abandonment to healing. This framework is based on Susan Anderson's model of the Five Stages of Abandonment.  

TNP62: Healing the Abandonment Wound {Special Mini Series Part 2 of 3}

In Part 2, I dive deeper into Attachment and Addiction. Additional readings I suggest in the introduction to this episode are linked below: The Attachment Parenting Book, by Dr. SearsHold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need To Matter More Than Peers, by Dr. Gordon Neufeld and Dr. Gabor MatéHold Me Tight, by Dr. Sue JohnsonAttached, by Amir Levine and Rachel HellerThe Opposite Of Rape Culture Is Nurturance Culture, by Nora SamaranThe Will To Change: Men, Masculinity and Love, by bell hooks  

TNP61: Healing the Abandonment Wound {Special Mini-Series Part 1 of 3}

A therapist I once worked with said it best: Abandonment is the gap between what you need and what you get. Abandonment arouses the primal fear of infancy and childhood, that of being left alone to fend for ourselves. This kind of wound is cumulative: every loss, betrayal, disappointment, rejection (perceived or real), break-up or death can trigger the primal Abandonment Wound. Rather than dissipate, feelings incubate. Everybody has an Abandonment Wound. The issue is not whether or not it exists within us, it’s how well we’re coping with it. In 2014, I delivered a lecture at the Canadian Association of Clinical Hypnotherapists Conference called, "Healing The Abandonment Wound: A Five Step Process". This is a special Numinous Podcast three-part mini-series that expands on that lecture with additional readings, resources and thoughts about how this work has evolved in the three years I've spent focussing the client work in my hypnotherapy practice in this area. Resources cited in this episode include: The Roots of Addiction in Free Market Society, by Bruce K. Alexander Rat Park, by Bruce K. Alexander and the comic it inspired by Stuart McMillen (not mentioned in this episode but equally entertaining work describing Rat Park is the video, "Everything We Know About Addiction Is Wrong") In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters With Addiction, by Dr. Gabor Maté The Journey From Abandonment To Healing, by Susan Anderson You can explore this work with me further at: www.carmenspagnola.com/abandonment-therapy/

TNP60 Lindsay Rose Turner - How The Healer Heals Herself

Lindsay Rose is a Reiki Master and intuition development teacher who has experienced more than her fair share of loss and tragedy in her life. In this episode, Lindsay shares the intimate story of her healing journey along with a host of techniques and tools that helped her cope when the sadness, pain and anxiety was overwhelming. This is an excellent episode for anyone who's struggling with the pain of death, a break-up or any form of abandonment.
Learn more about Lindsay Rose at her website or on her blog.
Find out about Love School at Locate Your Soulmate.

TNP59: Ritual + Magic with John Michael Greer

I chat with living occult encyclopedia, John Michael Greer, author of popular blogs, The Archdruid Report and The Well of Galabes.
John is Past Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America and current head of the Druidical Order of the Golden Dawn, and the author of more than thirty books. (Makes you wonder what the heck you do with your time, doesn't it?)
In this second conversation with John, we talk about why ritual sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I ask him about the placebo effect in relation to ceremony and healing. He tells me about a Druid communion ceremony (???) in more detail, including a description of the use of solar and telluric currents of the cosmos. We talk about the impact of reclaiming the gods of nature. And then he schools us on "decensus" and genetic drift.
It's a broad, sweeping and thought-provoking conversation about how and why the universe works the way it does and how humans behave in relationship to the greater realms. Whew!

TNP58: Carrie Klassen on Kindness + Goodness in Business + Life

My marketing crush, Carrie Klassen, shares the story of a heart-wrenching experience that occurred while she was volunteering at a shelter for abused girls and women in India.
How We Met
I first came across Carrie's work some time around 2009. When she released her workbook, How To Write a Loveable Homepage, she became the go-to adviser that I recommend to any entrepreneur who feels icky when it comes to sales and marketing.